Colin Birney has had an interesting career path working for both AV integrators and consultants and on the other side of the equation too for large end users like Hess Corporation and Google. He’s had a nice mix working in AV and IT as well as some time in the film industry as a sound editor.
He currently works as a consultant and has some great ideas on how to manage and support AV projects.
this is a software defined survival where we talk to AV IT professionals and software developers to find out how to leverage software to reinvent ourselves and we do business we listen to their stories and ask for advice and tactics on how to survive and thrive in a software defined what today software defined survive but the vast majority wins out there aren’t complex and I answer I mean I think when RTC is I don’t think people would be buying systems if they knew the actual cost of Google have projects where thousands of times and if your methodology so and it was five my name is Patrick Murray audio visual greetings to everyone listening today welcome to software defined survival today’s guest has had an interesting career path working for both TV integrators and consultants and also on the other side of the equation too for large end users like Hess corporation and Google he’s had a nice mix of working in AV and I. T. as well as some time in the film industry as a sound editor he currently works as a consultant and has some really interesting ideas on how to manage and support AV projects Colin be any welcome to the show hello how are you grace how are you doing well living it up and used to be sunny Florida mention this on a break today but today we’re we’re just hiding indoors so I was a good time to do a casting yes indeed it’s freezing here so I’m happy to be in his well so is there anything about that intro that you’d like to correct or expand upon not really %HESITATION that kind of that kind of covers and I’ve been I’ve %HESITATION pulled cables and ceilings and I’ve you know put together large managed service contracts and I run the whole gamut as far as the industry goes and it’s been a really really interesting ride and I’m I’m now just in my stage of %HESITATION consulting for myself and see where that goes excellent so you mentioned pulling cables how did you get started in AV tell me about your first job or project got started in the navy %HESITATION I actually started on night started with guitar and I love playing guitar going to concerts when I started getting the college and I realize you know I always want to be in a band I really is at the end of the day sound guy get a and everyone else go home maybe at a free beer hot dog when the bard had oftener well I really should be on the other side of this work so I decided to start doing a lot of mixing at the same time that I was doing a working on an engineering degree in industrial engineering and when I got done really feel like going into the I guess that has that were available inside when you sought out some integration work I went to a few folks that I knew and asked them to anybody who’s hiring or you know whatever I can get going and I ended up on the installation crew to sort of drop down and you know told me the last soldering iron suppliers and some stuff and study showed up a little bag and started doing it and it was something that I really enjoyed it really dug into it and I was able to move pretty quickly from installing into being a design engineer SPL picked me up after about six or eight months in you doing two jobs with them and I think from there things just sort of took off so that was my introduction into the industry and my time on the integration side and then %HESITATION following us feel like my kind of disappeared into the corporate world for the next decade before re emerging as a as a as a butterfly in the consulting side that is an interesting analogy they’re going into a cocoon and then re emerging as a butterfly at like that so in AV everybody has their nightmare projects can you tell me about your most rewarding AV projects and what made it special for you %HESITATION on hand aid I think probably the most rewarding was one of my most recent I worked on Google’s Singapore office and by admin tasks with basically there never too large and spaces there’s a customer space and there’s a massive video wall of in their lobby one of the first things you see when you come in the door of their of their offices and for me being part of something that was custom built actually getting to go to the factory in China for acceptance and testing and seeing how those are made and then watching all go up anything from start to finish that was so it is so rewarding or some exciting to see where everything you know the whole kind of process and supply chain all the way down to having it in an up and running %HESITATION and thankfully I was there to see see the opening to see people’s reactions and it’s such a stunning piece I mean it’s probably thirty feet tall notes of the biggest video all but it’s definitely press any any imposing when you when you walk in and they’ve been able to do a lot of really all of you know cool up things for people that are that are visiting the been able to have your local you too celebrities come in and they’re they’re getting is just playing a massive collage on the wall and you know they’re super excited it’s like that that to me is the best things like I I appreciate really good wiring and good craftsmanship and young intricate design but when someone has a positive reaction AT that to me is the most rewarding thing I can see yeah arm I have a come up with that once or twice already on this on this very young podcast is when the install falls into place it’s it’s really like wow okay it’s it’s a very relaxing thing and and %HESITATION these you know it’s it’s nice to have but really the icing on the cake is when you get to see how the system is being used and now as a programmer that’s something I hardly ever get to do but when you when you actually get to see people experiencing what you created that really is on an amazing thing that really makes it all worth while I think I agree and I and that’s kind of been my mantra for most of my career I mean one of the most impactful classes I had when I was in college was this woman taught a course on user interface and she she designs mostly cockpit layout and so her her impression of user designs like it has to be good and it has to be able to back out and things you know she’s in a situation when she designed for things where if you switch songs which you can die right thankfully I don’t think you’re I have ever had that that level of pressure but she seemed impressed I mean the fact that there’s you know there’s research in their standards and there’s there’s reasons for everything you do the size of the buttons all that you know down down to the details that really that really piqued my interest and as I started in SPL I ended up similar to you I interviewed him restaurant programmer and you know most of my days were spent our next you know two and a half years designing interfaces and trying to get around and get my head around the way the people working in Iraq the thing that I bills and for me going forward from there day user experience was what drove me you know I I wasn’t you know especially being on the end user side I wasn’t really in the business of trying to meet quotas are please manufacturers I was in the business trying to please the people that had to use technology and I think that’s a for me it was a really cheap part of the way I work arm the way it works now thing is everything is based on making sure everyone has a good experience I love AV like touching and playing with and I want people to experience with the way I do but they’re not gonna experiences that way if it’s through a weird interface and I’m okay with that you’re okay with that we can play in those windows ninety five looking actual words and have a great time but most people don’t have that kind of enthusiasm so I wanna make it something that’s quite a moment kind of see the magic of what it is you yeah it’s not only the enthusiasm it’s that they usually have other goals and other expectations when they’re in these rooms that we create like you mentioned that the guy flying the plane his his job is to fly the plane he can’t really be too well awed by the technology when he’s got a job to do and it’s it’s the same thing even when you’re doing something as mundane as giving a presentation or was standing in front of a room you know you just want the stuff to work and it’s it’s secondary to are so what you’re trying to do so what was it like working a cool it was massive I I think the biggest thing about Google is just the scale of things I mean I was able to work and you know fifteen plus countries on projects a lot of travel a lot of %HESITATION interaction with different cultures it definitely was a logistics exercise in many cases in Europe but not as much aged definitely %HESITATION but it was I don’t know is it was a really good experience is really good exercise in scale and I think that’s for me I was glad to see someone that had sort of figured out scale because I think one of the problems that when I talk to other integrators especially smaller integrators they struggle with that because they have a method that works for ten rooms twenty rooms thirty rooms when it gets in the one hundred two hundred five hundred you know Google have projects where thousands of times land and if your methodology so labor intensive you’re not gonna be able to yeah I can we will strive you know has companies are getting to the scale in alternately everyone is moving towards smaller cheaper rooms and on the arm right there in the days of having one video conference room for the floor that everyone’s were invited for just doesn’t really exist use you and I think that sort of scale is is real important it also gave me an insight into how to manage it you know insulation is one thing but managing fleet about sizes is another in nineteen nineteen thousand million points so that’s you know that’s something most people aren’t going to encounter at any point in our lives and I was really really happy to get a chance to work with that scale and understand and I think it you know it helps temper the conversation with other folks when they you know anxiety over the number of rooms the hands it could be worse you could twenty times it is overwhelming %HESITATION so what are some things that are that you noticed operating at that scale that that Google did or does to our kind of alleviate that that labor intensive type of installation let’s talk about the install side first and then we’ll talk about the management side so I think in the install side the one of the best choices they made in the they continue to move towards is owning everything they own the design you know you don’t integrator just don’t make drawings they can handed Ryan and they go on the court again because there’s no room for there’s no room for product variation there’s one bill materials that set you know any any deviation from it means a deviation in standard from you know that a fax support affects their supply chain facts the way that they I mean they would buy it would by and large ball would have agreements with with other companies that they would buy X. number of units and they would sit on and distribute them for jobs as they came up so I think that they they understand that are going to be simple and the standard is possible is very little deviation on in their standard design they have to be a really really good reason for it so it’s a it was all driven by kind of a very high level engineering I imagine whereas in navy on a smaller scale were a lot more open to adjusting things kind of on the fly maybe leaving things a little more open and it %HESITATION yeah both with pros and cons I’d imagine yes and no I mean I think the those are you know a lot of the prisoners exist on risible to users users will complain that while I wanted this where this isn’t quite right but you know that’s that’s obviously con but I think on the pro side you’re able to provide such a high level of of experience across all that you know you start getting variation experience are suffering from one room to the Max and United and in that situation where you go from one room to the next lax and every room looks different every touch every pieces experiences different people all preferences but you know there users know that if they walk into a certain type of room it’s gonna behave a certain way there’s no there’s no uncertainty in there’s no question about it yet makes it a lot more usable when things operate differently from room to room it almost becomes unbearable to up for the end user to even to even figure it out every time and now they wind up not using this technology great and I think with the fact that they tucking in young finally put a name to something that you don’t pass as well as you it becomes a product the room itself is a product like a product that has a life cycle of the product and there’s a lot to be learned on the way yeah I mean it’s not exactly the same with the way you know after elders of product manager Dr while we have product we have features we talk to users we got more features with a guy who can her family after releasing new products are new birch and then it has this has this nice clean life cycle that kind of builds itself and it’s built often user for the young music that feedback and I think in their case when you call a product that makes it a lot easier to say well there’s no variation I mean they’re they’re slight you know they have slight variations built and he could work with what is it going to buy cars yeah you know here you go and it’s like well can I have a different engine like now go get a different car this is and you know this isn’t what we do you know you can get you can get a spoiler eating and you know leather seats but ultimately the car the product the software everything that’s that’s treated and that is going to be standard and that’s just it’s an easier way to build and manage something out of very large scale I love the way that sounds especially as a programmer to know exactly you know what things should do how it should behave what is expected and more importantly how to get signed off the exact steps on how to get there it all sounds really great but %HESITATION we don’t all operate at this scale that Google does so take like your typical integration company would they be able to can you imagine a company like that taking this idea and saying this is our conference room products and offering just that and only that for maybe two or three different variations of it and and succeeding with that kind of a business model so that that you had a beautiful sentiments and experiment has been tried several times like you know if you people who started the this idea of a company where the end user doesn’t own the room the lease and it gets refreshed at the refresh cycle of the product new features roll out and can be you know there either part of the release or you can you guys tell Hey we have an option now to add new wireless screen sharing do you wanna do not you know sort of an add on kind of thing and I think right now no one has the appetite and I think it’s also a little too no one meeting insiders or the end user the end user I think the end user still needs customisation at a product level that can’t be satisfied by one whole room product you know Crestron tried that with the you know the lingering system or whatever or I probably know this woman but you know it’s like choose your issues you can’t come in and in the meanwhile rand in just I don’t think the end users are ready to buy but I definitely think that an innovator can go to and you can say look let’s take all your room is amazing generally town I shovel them into these buckets and let’s call each of these pockets of products and let’s give them your features and crown is you can work with and make it easy for your facilities planning in your life cycle planning AB team to design and manage and own the means and obviously there’s always gonna be our lives and that’s fine giving cover ninety percent use cases ninety percent standard is way better than a hundred percent on not suing him slightly so %HESITATION but definitely still on a case by case end user basis I think so but I think it’s the right I think it’s the right way to approach Amy even on a small scales this and what this is this is a product you should have a lifecycle should have a way to gather feedback we should understand that and I think ultimately most aid the organizations want to be like that they want to have a strict three or five your refresh cycle in one house you know they have these plans when it always something always just kind of unravels and never quite works out and you end up with things that are ten or twelve years all the action those one in them and a bunch of varying standards and I think it’s just because the art isn’t there at the moment yeah it would be nice to us of course these things that are predictable just makes it easier to run a business %HESITATION but like you said that that not just really hasn’t been cracked yet in any kind of a reliable way so I’ve been talking to a lot of AV pros lately about using open platforms on link then and the one thing that keeps coming up is is support so you know I like to use the raspberry pi to do automation control or even using an iPad to control devices directly and this stuff works the technologies absolutely there to do it and I’m of the belief that anybody who could program and AV system can learn these other technologies to so technology training really aren’t the issue but the support issue that keeps coming up they talk about even having on site support from a manufacturer so if you’re going to use something open source you obviously won’t have that and they’ll be savings right you won’t have the premium price point either and I kind of think if this is like a self service type of approach because if you go open source you have to take all the responsibility you have to own the solution yourself do you think that self service type of a approach has a place in pro AB I absolutely think it does I think that there is a nervousness too because you don’t get to you know throw the integrator out into a wall and boy they they really messed up this time let’s try different integrator it’s on you gets on the quality of developers you hire on the quality of of admins that you hired to manage usually I think from a cost perspective all their friends but it’s a new ground for the new realm in a way of thinking around something that was always just you have a black box it ran into that stuff when it died you replace the were all good to it being a little more living in in front of you and I think that scares you know definitely scares eighty people you know and I know that the the transition from you know makes you know nice young BNC cables to get five minutes you eyes and you know the source of all Sir is in all sorts of worry for for many people but I think it’s the next step in evolution in integrating appropriately with you know with the I. T. scene because really they’re they’re tired of everything is joined together and I think if you can create a mutual partnership you’re gonna end up in a better place because now you have a vested interest in making sure that your product is good and it works in a supportable you know if you have your network team monitoring your AV devices they’re much happier yeah so given your I. T. backgrounds what would you look for in an AV programmer or integrator or even a consultant as far as you know developing those kind of mutual partnerships I well I mean I think you need to take it slow I I definitely think it’s worth looking at existing use cases I think that’s the hardest that’s the hardest bridge to get across another you know might have talked about this a little bit sad yeah I can say all day long and you demos and things like that until I see it working in a real application with users actually touching it I don’t have a ton of faith and I think that really it’s gonna take a few someone going out and increasingly use it so I think you can start small start with replacing your digital signage infrastructure that was easy you need a box the place and stuff for the network okay let’s replace small grants require let’s see the failure rate is correct metrics on NASA thing for me I you know I come from I come from less of the design integration side and more from a managed service I want to know what it’s gonna do over the next one year two years three year five year what’s my failure at what is the refresh look like was the total effort that it takes to maintain the system because that’s key to a lot of a lot of design the gets left behind is what’s the ongoing cost yeah and that’s that’s the thing that’s really difficult right now is that if I put in certain manufacturers hardware my ongoing cost is really high and the level of technician I have time to work on it is really high in the total cost of that system isn’t a hundred thousand dollars it’s she wanted thousand dollars and that’s a big difference I don’t think people will be buying systems if they knew the actual cost of support you know like that and I think that the benefits towards something that’s open sourcing software base and you know and I think more importantly it’s she once you’ve developed your standard in your software rolling out another unit is not you know that barely that thanks that’s kind of thing goes on the corporate card any fifty rather by the king died on that I just when I was on violence is why not you know and I think that’s that’s where the value is in he in reducing that kind of ongoing cost yeah they’re gonna fail every piece of hardware does in summer some better than others but you know I think you just need to dive in and start gathering data okay so there’s a few things that you mention that I want to %HESITATION I want to come back to a little bit you mention price %HESITATION and sometimes the price comes out the same because you need a higher level of talent to integrate these commodity type solutions so that’s kind of a wash but does it offer more is it the flexibility that makes it so attractive or is that is that a big deciding factor as opposed to yeah as opposed to proprietary yeah I I think it is I think also because the whole town is more available for development see I can make saying some people don’t believe that I I think it’s on it’s all in what you choose you know yeah can hire you can hire a program team he he I I feel it’s easy to hire program team is a find a really good he’d be programmer right I mean you you and I both can probably name her top five favorite programs and there aren’t a lot of others that are just like stellar were you you can run into a really channels the situation of the just not there just gonna try and where is there is a million calories in Silicon Valley has I don’t know how many people and they’re all mostly programmers and I think you know if we if we go back to the idea of you know products you know product icing when you build the product when you initially come to and when you go three features unions friends so I bring twenty people and I just working in the ground for two or three weeks straight and then we stop and I think that that kind of developments like I can staff up really high for a brief time to get a lot done in software developers are used to working so if I have a future listen I want to get somewhere I can do is spent making a lot farther than I would having someone just on a lot of your having my AV department are you reading thing around and I think that’s where the benefit is that that and that cost is relatively fixed I say okay I’m a product of a life cycle and I’m refreshing every three years means every three years are spent and I was spent with a large number of resources but I know they’re only going to be there for you know three weeks six weeks however long it needs to be in that to me is is a lot more manageable than just saying well she’s going to be ongoing forever you roasting me playing with this and tweaking it and doing firmware upgrades and looking at the new version of whatever whatever it may be how do you how do you want to play because I think I’m going to a steady state and just lock it down which I don’t have to I don’t have to buy the new version restaurant pocket on my code library I can just drop in and you know there’s obviously security patches and things like that but that’s that’s just basic maintenance of a young winning some firemen yeah you’ll be making updates but now that has to do really with what you’ve developed in the beginning so it almost sounds like that day are typical AV community are not the people to be doing things like this that that it becomes more in the realm of the IT department and software developers almost yeah I would say so that yeah the needs to be features a question but I think that most of it isn’t hard to achieve anymore and granted we’re talking about the like I said probably the ninety percent of cases which is yeah hall rooms five six person rooms you know rooms with functionality that are that are very basic when you get into really hiding spaces yeah it doesn’t work it doesn’t work now if I needed any note DSP program all I am not in that like finding an intense race with you know an H. yes the Iraq bone all that’s like yeah I’m gonna go Evert your roster need all of you know network there’s no question but the vast majority wins out there aren’t complex and I think the vast majority solutions are over engineered for something that’s not a complex answer most people want to share their laptop with the screen they want to make an audio called when we could get a call you can meet those three features regardless of how you make them you’re probably going to be successful in most most world you’re in again I’m I’m not anyone over symbols on easy but in any realm that’s kind of what it breaks down to the communications I want to teach or to be heard on the scene yeah box it’s not a really it’s not a really complex problem that you’re solving for for probably ninety percent of you use cases I think it’s when we can start digging into more creative solutions yeah definitely just as a little side story I I have actually done it once I went to freelancer dot com and had somebody or hate an iPad app for me and it was just the user interface but I gave the specs and a lot of it was adjustable from a a text file and I got it back in two days and then I hooked it up to my end devices with TCP connections anyways yeah I mean it was great the guy was in China so I gave the specs I went to sleep I woke up I got a report it told what the change in in two days the whole thing was done and the price was pretty much the same as what I pay for navy programmer so it really is a valid way of getting things done I just think a yeah people are afraid of of different technologies any kind of change is obviously a bit scary one of the other things you talked about was %HESITATION having the metrics to decide if if this is the right thing right so there’s always gonna be that first projects where you don’t have any data but once you do have that data presented to other customers you can show the people and on your future projects you could %HESITATION make decisions based on that data so what are some of the things that that %HESITATION that prevent us from actually collecting data if it’s so valuable I I mean I think part of it is just not you know that’ll lag in AV behind IT AT is very well I’m not gonna in we have a list as a lot of a lot of customers who are struggling with their IT side just like maybe sign in gathering meaningful data and really it’s about getting information about incidents so what problem happens something valuable is in that whether it’s the product that failed the reason it failed the reason is recorded and and that just builds over time you one incident doesn’t mean anything incidents and can turn into a problem you know then you identified as a problem and you can start to identify you know certain products that aren’t good for that you need to consistently have the same the same issues over and over and I think really the problem is that traditionally the equipment doesn’t really enable good metrics you don’t have a global reporting so you can on the on a piece of never there’s a lot of companies out there trying to change that I think there’s a lot of there’s a lot of good monitoring software and %HESITATION I think deeply moved to having everything IP connected in a room is great because then you can start to gather that that pilot data but it’s still it’s still something that needs a lot of work and attention from my point of view really at a basic level I just need to know something’s liable and not a good place to start if I put in this you know opinion brand X. TV and let it run for three years was reliable cost me to have to use tons of man hours replacing the CD’s or trouble shooting them or did they just kind of sit and do their job that’s the kind of that’s the kind of data that lets you make okay warned now to save version two point of this product coming to stay with that same no manufacture or many no different direction because it wasn’t quite what I what I wanted to be so I think at a very basic level just reliability to school with and you can really begin to any number of things you know that’s where %HESITATION especially talk about telephony or or video conferencing there’s just so much data the hole from there but it’s almost too much and I think that’s where some of the modern modern tools we’ll help you can set thresholds you can set boundaries to the data you collect because we collect all yes you can you can start doing data mining and really dig in and try to find trends but ultimately no one has time for that at this level you know if I’m trying to optimize something that makes me money that’s one thing but I’m this is a system that costs money right and I think that’s where that’s what people want to spend time on a given day so I think whatever level of data you can collect is gonna be useful clicking no data not you know that’s that’s not gonna help anyone but the very least just getting a list of what goes wrong I mean look at and and try to find trends that’s that’s the starting point and you just go from there he started having more data more information as you go as you notice things that should be collected you figure out a way to collect them excellent so some of the push factor here once in awhile is that %HESITATION there will be companies who will never let you send anything to the cloud to be stored any thoughts on that or any thoughts on how to get around that would you just stored locally on a server %HESITATION but I think that that opinion is breaking down really quickly because it’s getting harder and harder to maintain the inference is an exchange environment okay yes isn’t feasible when you weigh the need attention security versus the reliability like I am hundred times more likely to have a locally hosted managed exchange environment go down verses accomplished one you know that’s just the numbers are just against you can’t possibly have enough exchange servers running you know and make it reasonable from cost perspective than they can running in the cloud in the cloud they’ve optimized everything yeah that’s why when the Intel but came out everyone was curious because losing a few percent efficiency that’s calculated and so a few percentage like is is massive scale you know people people running local Serbs like Cain trips whenever we need multiplied out my millions it’s really really cool and I think for people that don’t think that we should host nation host anything the cloud I don’t I don’t really understand that I don’t think it’s any more secure on these any more reliable getting in on premise thing is just a control thing yeah what it what would you want control over the tune this is something that I had a lot of discussion with the navy is that what Abel information is your AV system sending out that will just devastate you some new about it like when did you see her HM my ankle one a single tear allies goodness candle is all it’s horrible and I think you know that that to me you know to get back to you know how many made awhile ago you talked about your collecting data and sharing it doesn’t happen every every end user I am not gonna say every end user but most end users closely guard their AV system you know my my my dream world would be that if I develop a new product Sam I’m in I’m in user I. developing new products I get down to design a run for a few years I have user feedback I have metrics I have tons of information I have a complete design when I release version two point no version one final goes a consortium someone else can use it yeah early on in my career we made a world of difference for me to see effective well designed systems or even poorly designed systems with the data saying here’s everything we did wrong absolutely out there in the wild and that doesn’t happen people act like yeah like drawings are just just like closely guarded secret of someone gets a glance at that time we can start correctly industry wide open and that’s the system Sir you know I I don’t I think that is staring I understand one integrators because that is their hi Terry piece of information that’s something you know a lot of them have a design that you kind of you know when you’re creating your customers but for an end user why not why don’t you share that when you open that out to to the rest of the community because a lot of us could stand to learn from it absolutely so it sounds like a obviously open source the motivator behind that is because that’s how programmers learn to code mod most programmers used some kind of open source at some point in their life to %HESITATION to learn how to do what they do today and it’s just more I don’t know what it is I think maybe because it’s it’s more based on the individual and the immediate need I need some code to learn from right now and they appreciate that somebody gave it to them so they’re more willing to open source their own stuff so other people could could learn from that it will be nice to find a way to get that on an organizational level where people approach your systems with these products mindset and once once its archives wants to point oh comes out that one point no could be a out there for other people to learn from and it would probably improve our industry overall Sir really interesting take on things yeah and I think really my my view open sourcing mystery movie open sources mom giving someone for free like well you look for yeah yeah you look at it look yeah and that’s how you know like when I was learning HTML back when I was you know I was in early high school and you know what I was getting on like I learned by viewing source and just pulling it apart it was all visible I can see I can download scripts and look at things and that to me was such a valuable learning tool just beginning to look at it and I think that part of the you could go back to part of the reason that I think a V. industry struggling with getting new talent and most people drop in and have no idea what’s going on yeah because they don’t have a chance to then they’ll get a little sneak preview of it he was going off on the industry believes you should give that a try well what is it Hopkins the secret in that and that’s something you know on on linkedin I’ve talked to a number of people that have just they’ve asked for advice you know I’ve I’ve met them through other forums or even just on linkedin and they just reach out to unite I’m always you see someone interested in I try to give them as much as I can because to me just being able to see what the work looks like hopes to make a decision and I think the work is attractive but I don’t think it’s very transparent at the moment but you do day in and day out and and honestly I don’t really know what most eighty people there day in and day out maybe that’s why it’s that I don’t know what the day after day you know because I don’t agree for more I guess yeah weight in this one sanding is imminent firm where there is a lot of that to every project you kind of start from zero %HESITATION basically probably because we don’t know adopts these modern software development approaches where a lot of things are open source so you don’t have to repeat yourself over and over you you know just taking a package that’s already done in using it in your projects just dumb doing that is kind of a challenge right you got a copy and paste it make sure things line up the right way and things like that whereas with something like I’m a big fan and no jazz you just type in an PM in the name of the package you want to install in its party or project it’s it’s ridiculously easy I’d love to see more that maybe but it’s with the closed source approach it’s it’s almost impossible to start doing things that way so let’s talk about some different technologies we are we had a chat a few weeks ago and %HESITATION I know you’re also a big fan of WebRTC having worked at Google and I was really surprised this is actually my sweet and from what I just said there are a few open source projects pure GS and simple simple here are a few of them and the I was able to make my own video conferencing application in just a couple of hours using these open source technologies and it was based on WebRTC so what do you think if any WebRTC what kind of an impact it’ll have on on TV I think role so I mean I think when RTC is or used to change everything because it’s so because it’s been open source because it can adopt as a standard across all devices in any field you don’t go to the end of the page on that and you’ll see it’s like every browser except for internet explorer because it’s gonna be different but as does or not iOS android whatever Samsung’s Nero S. as in male supporter because Dane realize that there is a need for a year cross platform wave communicating it’s not perfect not subject to the whims of network and and things like that but I think for me just a pure development standpoint you know if I if I have a small company I can I can use liberty see free doesn’t mean websites I can just go in and type in a you know type in a random string a letters at the end of their address and it spins up a room and I’m gonna by people in the same experience you have on hang out facetime and experiences like that it’s a collaborative environment Jack I can talk to people and I think it’s it’s a really important %HESITATION two important piece of technology in changing the way we think about collaboration and I think one of the biggest things you especially you know bringing global into it one of the biggest things that they did was reduce the cost point that they could be so widespread is so saturated that everyone has access to it you know who I am in preparation for your for talking here I can I can I wouldn’t get a refresher on the you know the the history of video conferencing and it’s always been this this too will pass of hardware versus software you know you had intake should tell you Mary hardware based hardware hardware hardware you hadn’t seen you seen me the old Cornell written you know is basically the first software based video conferencing platform when its route and it’s always kind of band these two signs of things most of my first experiences with a video called video crossings and forms a Yahoo messenger and MSN messenger and scrape the sort of social platforms and I think people like me that grew up using social platforms for video don’t really want to go into a work environment and have this like heavy restricted way of conferences and I think that whatever T. C. helps unify a lot of the differences like obviously as a you know as a company we can’t like well everyone’s on face now not gonna happen doesn’t work because I mean you know then you get tied back to hardware again run but having a standard that’s open across all platforms you know the Saudis open across software doesn’t matter what you’re running your own home you’re running of RTC and I think that that ability to heavily saturated video into the environment is really valuable neon and like you said you could get up and running in a few hours with the basic you know costing service yeah I was I was really surprised at how approachable it was really was about the greatest programmer and it’s was a pretty amazed at that I like the way you pointed out that that dumb it is really a software defined solution sometimes I have a hard time explaining what software defined means and that’s a perfect example of it like if you if you have to use facetime then you need their hardware so it becomes hardware defines but when you can break free of that and %HESITATION application will run basically anywhere with minimal requirements and then %HESITATION then you deal with the software defined solution and things just become a whole lot more flexible and yeah and even like agile so this is you talk about it from the point of view of more of like collaboration video conferencing face to face meetings have you given any thought of using it as a WebRTC is is like a screen sharing solution on on a local network yeah absolutely I mean I think it works like I think they’re still having most end users and most likely people can wrap their heads around UC and UC is is a buzz word that’s been around for a long time and I guess is not a buzz word it defines something really specific and that’s chat video screen sharing you know it’s it’s it’s a way to collaborate across multiple platforms and I think that when RTC is definitely a good way to do yeah audio in screen sharing Chattan screen sharing I think it’s it’s uses are just however you choose to work yeah definitely okay so the last time we talked you told me you were a about to make you were traveling and you were gonna make a few stops on your way back growing growing up in the nineties it was %HESITATION pretty difficult not to escape that decade without getting a few piercings not not the big hole in your piercings that that the kids have these days but it was a very much a thing having piercings and of course tattoos are very popular would you care to share with us some of the things that you’ve been experimenting with lately that are kind of more technology oriented but along the same so RIAA I am I am fascinated by and and I and I think my first exposure to this and you know we’re gonna call by acting because you know you need a cool word for it all right though bio hacking is where you implants little bits of electronics into your body and then we’ve been doing this for years and years and years with animals take a little castle it’s got you know their name and address and information and animals on the scanner when you get that information humans have the same ability I’ve got plenty of little pockets of skin and places where I can hide things that you know won’t Jackson people don’t actually know about and so I am I am embarking on on my first two lance wanted be %HESITATION NSC along we are ID just because you never know what you need to clone and can refer to future proofing and there’s there’s obviously higher higher density medium you can put in with a little more pain and suffering but it’s an interesting way of working and I met a man in London and %HESITATION covered in tattoos he’s like I thought it was just some kind of insane writer in a bar started talking to her and she worked in security at Barclays and he broke the tactics cards so he he wrote an absent is the operator studio technique ardently getting attacked a car is a cold it was like that everything read out like this is a problem holy ground short sightedness I’m just thinking that you know because you have the proximity your say you said in a matter of minutes and take your card cloning here clone it’s my hand and I can walk around town just buying stuff however I want yes I have your information and I thought it was fascinating as I started researching some of the housing where it is and it’s all very %HESITATION yeah that’s not recruit at this point but there is no last name probably about a hundred to two hundred thousand people have some kind of implant that they’re working with other it’s you know magnetic so they can sense shields love like Christians do that so you can see if wires hot right now approximately to the magnets that are in your skin because it helps enhance the the sensitivity and I see your ID also pleased to store in Christian Jeez some people use it just for basic things like unlocking the phone it’s really about having having a little bit closer physical security of what you own you might my jeans situation would be to walk around with nothing but my hands and be able to buy things unlock my car and started unlock my front door and just not have to carry around cheese and dongles I mean I was just care and are ready but what’s the fun in that exactly sounds a little far fetched in in %HESITATION sci fi but %HESITATION yeah I I definitely think things like this will become more prevalent as as the use cases and applications become more commonplace and the reason I wanted to do it was you are talking about people who are just freaked out and part of it is like I I wanted to put into to educate myself I think there’s there’s two years it was a mistake ology because you understand it’s like yeah it’s a little are what’s the big deal right out what you know I I don’t I don’t understand that one of the people understand because we have super freak out when you talk about including implanted making all the tracking it’s like okay so that’s impossible I would have to be in an RFID reading worlds groom yeah inches away from me at all times to his hat that I have this season for me I’m the only one that knows that I have yeah not anymore what two or three of them to know where a lot of options the nose so I really like that overcoming your fear of technology by just educating yourself and learning about it given getting hands on that’s something that I think the AV industry could really do a lot more of so given your experience working with the enterprise end users what what some tips or advice you have for maybe integrators or software developers to kinda differentiate themselves and like even like a company like Google do they even use thirty party software no it’s now in the use of a little restaurant so there’s there’s crush on controllers needed most of it is developed in house as part of their their video boxing solution %HESITATION just just be clear you know because we don’t win touch on issues related yeah they run entirely on when RTC their entire platform so this may help develop the standard use it extensively in there can you sketch for why an open source platform can be deployed on a massive scale I think the biggest thing you can do is come in with concrete creative ideas I think a lot of end users are ready for something new you know me and we’ve been offering the same thing in just a little bit different flavor year after year that’s why you know she was like Infocom I attend them and I like them but I couldn’t skip probably two years at a time and not really a mess that much said yes there’s nothing in there but generally you go from Bruce Willis like %HESITATION woman different hardware you know different screen greetings slightly different there’s just little incremental changes and I think that end users would be excited by something new and different how would you kind of find out so there is this if it’s going to be new and different they obviously don’t know about it yet right otherwise they would be asking for it so there’s like this gap and I guess creativity is where that plays a role of you know what would be useful and and and creating something like that and and raising awareness about it any ideas on how to fill that that void there I hate I mean I think just showing off you know it it takes nothing to build yeah we talked about this site you know TV with little chaos that’s conduct a laptop with my PC sessions you can share like I’m just felt I just bill wireless screen sharing system that cross your minimal cost is minimal you do without interfaces and he’s in codes you can you can get a proximity sensor and gonna turn on loss and creates a unique code every time so there’s your security built than theirs features built and I think the fear is if you show something off like that and they ask for it when you got a deliberate gonna build it in so it’s it’s I I really think I don’t think integrators having some of to do that you know they they right now don’t have you know it’s it’s such a tight competitive market margins are pretty well set across all you know everything that yeah we differentiate you but also you’re putting you know you’re putting money at risk by going in and developing a solution and can take and mark your sense of on the toes manufactures I think really the place where I’m from is being used thing to ask for and some like me I believe heavily in in educating your educating without any strings I don’t like giving presentations where I get you know about ninety percent of them like you want the rest of the story sign up for my newsletter or hire me like I want to give you tools to start playing yeah maybe all you know maybe I’ll need help with it but maybe it’s just enough to spark your interest and get you going I’m really excited to see what the education market is going on will be later Cornell there goes digging and definitely when suddenly Cornell as from Cornell was the one who wrote see you singing which kicked off the whole computer based video conferencing movement so they have a history of of being innovators in in this case and I think that as you see more in action use cases you are you being a really good one it’s in use you can go see yeah about him is not is not just an idea you know we’re in right now we kind of we kind of sound like drainage but it’s on get up yes it’s happening it’s real and it exists just because you don’t see in this not being pitched year Bruno in above if you get above the you know the sales pitch and and what’s sort of the norm freeing starting to those sort of weird pockets of that you’re gonna find people doing really unique stuff that works really well he has so much to unpack there and think about %HESITATION we’ve been gone for awhile now do you have a few more minutes I do okay because there was one other thing that came up at the end of our last talk and that was contract manufacturing I think so is what is really going to get people excited because you were mentioning right is that that the margins are pretty much the same across product lines across integrators so what are you competing on basically I don’t know how much you’re willing to give up so maybe he actually contract menu manufacturing equipment could be an interesting way to arm to get back in the game somehow what were your thoughts on that I I agree I mean I think that’s that falls back in this idea of reading something as a product unifying if I understand you know what I was sitting in most cases you drop in this you know if you started managing and use a product you drop kind of in the middle of something by you have an idea of how many wins you have an idea of what’s needed and you can start looking for those opportunities to manufacturing equipment have it manufactured for it you know microphones is a good example and cables you know the markup on those isn’t saying I can get a six dollar microphone on Ali express granted after a hundred of them six all my component performs pretty closely to anything that most major manufacturers put out you know just local one hundred my that’s huge that’s a huge opportunities to you doctor to have control and a lot of those companies are making that want to work with you they want to work with you to improve the product they want to work with you to customize a and so you to start developing your own standards and making things around you know even even down to just you know it’s like I just want we want the court to be a different color cool yeah let’s do it let’s give you some noble designed flared what you’re telling I think there’s a huge opportunity there to re evaluate the way that you do you know if you know you the ownership of the beyond beyond what we have now and again I don’t want to pick extensively on integrators but they’re tied into a system that doesn’t you know that that kind of get you in if I can find a way to work through that around that I have I have opportunities to to explore this place is some sort of junk some sources and that’s where your valuation process you know your sample of everything out there and see what works and what doesn’t and then make a decision and go and I think that ultimately the the sense of ownership and they sent me on the actual levels control is is pretty cool yeah it definitely increases you do have to have some kind of scale in order to do that bottom yeah definitely a new approach that I’m kind of fascinated pie yeah I’ve I’ve spoken with a few folks and a good friend of mine is the material science %HESITATION engineer and he is the head of paramount for lighting company and when he first started in that role and no manufacturing experience and he said you know five years later you’d be surprised how easy it is to get a product made exactly to your specifications really brought me specify at you can source those parts because ultimately that’s what everyone else is doing then they’re going out there going on the finding someone make the driver will make their enough time allows you so make the driver some make the chat the other body yeah there’s there’s obviously still those your boutique shops that do things I am working on his part you find a company that does injection molding phone company that makes little drivers behind some put it all together and then you can pretty little bottom and there’s really no difference in going out and doing it yourself other than the effort and the confidence to do that in again that’s a level of ownership that I don’t know the lot of people are comfortable with same thing with owning your own design you can easily run your own design and layout sources of income that they will say this is what you’ll be installing but you’re responsible of the end for owning at I’m sure you do not everyone and I do want to carry out that that you know when we do talk about these ideas it’s not for everyone some user groups yes some users are going to respond well to it they want something that is extremely stable extremely reliable extremely not sent those can’t be but there is an element of you know there is some experimentation before you to release one Dato yeah sure and I think that that’s I think that that’s the challenge is it is having the confidence to take a risk and I think that’s you know that’s one of things that that I mean more than anything impacted need from being it rules they have this idea of what’s called the moon shot in a man shot is an actual risk I’m putting my money on my reputation or my job on the line for something that I think will be revolutionary and what they did when they developed their GDC system based on liberty scene was that they said okay we have a huge traditional infrastructure we’re tired of it it doesn’t work for us as a market scale they wrote their own video conferencing platform that’s insane yeah but it cannot massively it turned into a product for them on the market with that as a part of the G. screen right okay even if they never took the rest could still just being struggling through the simulation paramount says with their video conferencing infrastructure the limited you know they be they be cutting down on our video called because they just can’t support it so I think there are ways to take those looming shots within your environment you know build up a tolerance for risk you know try I assume it costs a little bit and if you fail it doesn’t hurt quite so bad and scale up from there until you’re just you know taking crazy risks excellent I love the sound of that contact anybody like to get in touch with you how they go about doing that %HESITATION you can get in touch with me on linkedin %HESITATION just my name calling Bernie be I are any why you can also email me call and ask Bernie consulting dot com and I will be happy to chat with you about whatever I’m always down for good okay lively discussion about the future of a zillion and what’s good and what isn’t %HESITATION so I’m I’m happy to chat with folks you know I’m not I am a consultant but I think I’ve been told by a lot of people that I’m not a very good one because they don’t sell enough so if you email me I never getting around asking if you need any help but I’m always happy to talk and and and offer suggestions and going in the right direction when you’re looking for something new and different that’s what I want ultimately I want to see our industry change once you get better and more creative and I think that is going to start with a few key people stepping on taking risks excellent thank you so much for being on the show count absolutely thank you better take care after hearing and thanks for listening to the show if you enjoyed this discussion if you liked what you’ve heard if you want to hear more discussions like this please don’t I leave a review subscribe to the show send me a comment get in touch with me somehow and let me know that you’re out there listening and that’ll motivate me to show so if you’re driving or whatever asks you reach to set something in your calendar to give you a reminder I thanks for listening to software defined survival for transcripts and show notes find survival