Episode 24: Shane Springer On Human Centered Design And The Mythical Zero Punch List Project

this is a software defined survival where we explore how software defined systems are changing the business of IT today software defined survival there’s no reason and technological landscape that we’re in today to have a control processor in every room you know why not have one that drives everything and if you’re going to have one that drives everything wise after software these days you know scalability if we have to rewrite the code time don’t get any of the benefits that you need to get out of it it just becomes more less conventional system the previous model we designed a system for what’s available today and some or all of what the customer asked for and then we put that system and then we come back at the end when they don’t want to and we do that exact same thing again as engineers as programmers we’re really good at making complexity even though our whole job is to eliminate at welcome my name is Patrick Murray and today’s guest on software defined survival got his start in theater lighting and sound before moving on to be an AB technician programmer and engineer he’s also a member of the leadership committee for the association for quality in audio visual or AQ AV dot org where he’s also Sir where he also serves on the organization’s steering committee for the past several years and if that wasn’t enough he’s also designed and implemented the quality assurance practices that led to the first AV provider excellence program or eight packs the first certification of that from a big seller in the world so please welcome sheen Springer Shane welcome good morning Patrick is going to be here how is that introduction is there anything you’d like to correct or expand upon we know the real problem with that looking at the link then about a true generalist doesn’t cover the time always arborists are mine on software development hobbyists where it stands right up and you got book about excellent so yet tell us a little bit more about your software endeavors hobbyist or professional or otherwise absolutely though and as you mentioned I started the down a programming track years ago in a traditionally be tracks start on a mac side all of that up with some Crestron work and you know is this money for me because my father actually was %HESITATION in IT so I grew up in and I still remember the %HESITATION the exultation seein that cal pattern box come in the house since we got our first computer and what was that I was a a gateway with standard that I can’t even tell you what was this farm and I was probably six years old at that point but you know that growing up in that I. T. you know kind of structure and going to work with my dad you know I’ve seen a lot of these systems start to grow in a software became more important yeah he was a minister or a mix or you know things like blackboard so in those early days it was a lot of custom code it was a lot of you know new introductions to web services for people and I’ve kind of what I grew up and so when I came over to the side it was you know like a time machine going back and seeing now here we are and see I didn’t know they were still using say so that was a an interesting experience around like you know core tramp but you know that coming into that kind of software world gave me an early taste I think of wanting to do something different you know wanting to be a part of moving those things forward so I have been one of the you know earlier folks in the industry that has been playing with raspberry pi and really seeing you know where job rational and so can factor in and finding as I know you have as well that you know in a lot of cases the equipment inside the industry beyond what I’m you know playing with is just not ready for this kind of communications so that’s kind of been my my AV software experience up for the first several years of that career nice I I I like the way that’s come up a few times like %HESITATION having some kind of computer in the house as a child that was my experience as well we had an apple to see and I remember banging around with basic and just the other day I I had to show my son control alt delete which was kind of interesting so you still have something to teach the right yeah exactly so tell us a little bit about %HESITATION what you’ve been doing with the raspberry pi a lot of what I find you know I I come out see in the industry that there for a long time they were kind of story segments right to how we do integration there was the smaller kind of commodities based you know a lot more education thirty five seven saying simple cheap room and then that and are in the middle you have the more complicated grams you know little theaters your class and stuff like that and staying about education model and then you had being custom spaces in auditoriums and stuff like that and what I’ve kind of noticed is that it seems like you know the waters are parting as it were and the the middle of that spectrum is gonna start to go away and we’re finding a lot more commodity space stuff and a lot more you know high and extremely detailed custom so that was originally why I started playing with the choir was you know how can we take that lower and commodities and really make it a lot more efficient you know there’s no reason in there now technological landscape that we’re in today to have a control processor in every room you know why do you not have one that drives everything and if you’re gonna have one that drives everything or why they have to be a thousand dollars the fifty dollar machine do the same bank and that was kind of what really drew me into experimenting more with the raspberry PI know especially is displays more and more are able to be powered on you know it’s relatively simple to get somebody a basic interface that lets them next time a day and then go to your IP addresses of your displays and bam it all turn out the same time to turn off sametime stuff like that so now we’ve been experimenting a little bit more with stating that next step further and integrating into calendar even %HESITATION so that they turn on when they’re needed internal when they’re not which is not revolutionary per se people have been doing that for you know a decade or more but being able to do that in a kind of more IT friendly hardware form no more I do friendly software where they feel they can modify that internally as they need to and in a way that gives them a little bit more visibility to security %HESITATION both at the network layer and physically I think it’s been really kind of interesting as I started working with people for those types of systems so you mention security and I definitely wanna circle back to that so %HESITATION please don’t let me forget it but in the introduction I I forgot to mention what company you’re working for now tell us a little bit about where you’re working is it an integrator and what your responsibilities there and then I’d like to know how the raspberry ties in to the business model that company absolutely I’m so become their records one workplace they are a pretty big enough company in California that probably most people haven’t heard of they’re one of the largest steel case dealers on the west coast and that kind of presented sound interesting working format for me as I work inside and be integration firm that lives inside of that sticky mess I’m our owner is in our chat a family company so when they took the reigns over and we’re looking at near where the industry was going next where they traditionally have an office versions company they decided to diversify and a big part of that was fulfilling the needs of the rest of the commercial space which was a large part of what they were serving at the time so they looked at the technology inside the conference rooms and we also have a interesting construction division that does your modular walls and stuff like that but because of my position inside of what for many intensive seven tiered design company %HESITATION one workplaces fun challenge for me as a designer because I get a really good conduit to the folks that you know now we’re really starting to talk about and you know it makes a world of you know the folks that really drive a static you know it’s not just the architects anymore in a lot of cases it’s interior design berms or you know just commercial punishing companies that are driving a lot of these stations and that’s give me a good opportunity to design with a design in mind %HESITATION you know we use that term human centered design yeah and one workplace is a great example of that especially in America did your business which you know has always been driven by you know user consultation and really interacting with everybody to make sure that they’ve captured what people are looking for people instead of justice you know business returns so talking about what we’re doing on the raspberry pi front right now we’re in kind of a development phase on a couple of different smaller things but a big thrust of what we’re looking at for is your asset management active monitoring and you know having an ability to take a lot of our existing customers that you know may or may not have gotten installations from us in the past and is still serving those customers daily as you know that service resource in that are constant contact by going in and taking over other systems as well to do in a kind of that monitoring portion of it and make sure that whatever system I got stays healthy that’s pretty interesting I like the the way that you talk while the position that you’re in right so it was a furniture company so maybe they don’t have as much baggage of %HESITATION the way things are done in AV or the business model is an already in place for selling equipment on margin which gives you a lot of freedom as coming into this space with with kind of a new eyes and without the restraints of of the past and I also think it’s interesting absolutely true okay so I think it’s also interesting that now that you’re looking at existing systems how you could reach new life into them with asset management and and system monitoring and this is kind of maybe something that any integrator could kind of think about is you know how do we add more value and I think %HESITATION things like collecting data and monitoring are great services or a great opportunity to do that can you talk a little bit more about how you’re kind of executing on that about how you’re rolling those kind of systems out or what are your plans on what technologies are gonna be using for sure no it’s come out when we originally looked at at %HESITATION I had this this voice in the back of my head and in my case the voice in the back of my head is named Paul Sealey works for harm and they were he always says you know there’s a life cycle of the traditionally the room it’s about eight years first three everybody loves it the first next three everybody’s ambivalent in the last year everybody hates it and then the integrator walks and and you know that is kind of the empty desert you know let’s let’s change that model let’s get in there before everyone he said and actually get the opportunity to figure out you know what what they like about it when they don’t a big part of what a system like that looks like my mind is you know just basic data collection and being able to do that in such a way that it actually is applicables you know human interpret ball because you take an example like neon does the display turn on that’s easy you know that’s simple binary function but if you really want to know do people use the display that’s not the same power status so being able to more intelligently and contextually look at those kind of things where you can say you know I need to correlate not only is this way on is the HDMI something sank and is it something sank for the you know entire duration without interruption because that may be a synthetic positive where somebody has their stuff like Dan and just leave that so that’s kind of more our focus as we move through this development phase is looking at you know how can we really provide not only the information context that enables but their business decisions and some of that has come from that data side and how we you know correlating see and a lot of it comes from you know the the qualitative side rather than the quantitative and really talking to the users of the stakes talking to the support staff you know I know I don’t have to tell you there is nothing more valuable than the perspective of the guy has to fix the room that is where you find every single problem in that room and probably some that aren’t even an issue but he wants you to know about so that that has really been helpful and I think you know for me almost personally transformative to get the ability to really look at systems through such personal human lands figure out what their solution is sending you know kind of back to you’re asking about the you know how do we really implemented that so far it hasn’t been super super direct line you know super linear relationship with that it’s kind of an person by person space by space and that is kind of a a hurdle to overcome when you’re looking at something like that but you know for a lot of people need to be very scalable you know obviously that’s the big point of software these days you know scalability if we have to rewrite the code and reinvent the wheel every single time you don’t get any of the benefits that you need to get out of it it just becomes more less conventional system so that’s something that we’re really actively working on now we got you know smaller demos and violence in place to see how to really address that scalability without losing the human touch and I’ll let you know on the go excellent I I like the way you pointed that out bottom I think it’s important to note that you are getting started right you’re not letting that fear of scaling hold you back which I think is is an important thing to keep an eye on right that there’s nothing wrong with making custom applications to serve a particular clients needs but you and as long as during that progression you you’re keeping your eye on what tools you’re using what could be repackaged what could be made to be a a reusable modular type of a tool and still provide that custom experience for the end user I think that’s that’s the challenge but it’s also the opportunity where where you kind of set yourself apart instead of saying we use asset management tool from manufacture ex you saying we’re going to use are known tools to provide something customized for your needs and %HESITATION the other thing I took away from that was you mention this AV system life cycle and talking to the tax and they’ll give you the answers that kind of reminded me of agile software development where you kind of constantly upgrading systems based on user feedback do you have any thoughts on yeah I mean I think if you look at you know really any process in you know imagines mine no involvement in it you will be which is ultimately you know process look at you know can’t do you look at the design process look at you know as a software development they all are a circle and that’s extremely important even you know flashing back to %HESITATION the design days in on Donaldson the father of human centered design even his process is completely circular because ultimately if you know what you do you can you know what I consider to have been the previous AB model we designed a system for what’s available today and some or all of what the customer asked for and then we put that system in then we come back at the end when they don’t want anymore and we do that exact same thing again yeah but it was a different room because the industry has changed but we in no way had you know handed we were just kind of responding to whatever the environment wise and giving you something I’m asking where is today I think the model is shipped in both at a customer level and what’s expected but also you know very slowly at an even greater level of how we really interface with those kind of processes and you know collecting information and feedback you know in the end of the cycle we talked about where everyone hates it is a very different experience and ultimately somewhat less helpful than collecting a lot of the same data mystery you know one of the things that bother me but I’m still happy with the system you know that’s an important difference between the system doesn’t work I never liked it why did we get past and Hey this is something we could improve on the next one maybe it’s not a difference from the development portion but it isn’t Westinghouse development question because you’re getting a lot of that stuff cost much quicker but ultimately I think that that kind of process minded thinking as you you know highlighted it where everything really feeds back into developing a better product is ultimately a real boon to the integrator I know I just listen to the last episode suffered on survival fantastic asked after Murray and the things you mentioned was you know sometimes people are receptive to the system and it’s going to work and they can do it and sometimes people just aren’t and that you know it’s a reality I see as well that you can lead a horse to water but you can drop a lot of horses before you figure out they’re not going to drink and that you know its importance as an integrator to take that brass when somebody brings you a new idea look at it and say Hey how old is this really poised to help me because in the case of that kind of constant feedback cycle not only does it improve your your relationship with the inner with the customer and improve your you know whole business with that customer but you take those same lessons to every customer you touch after that you know all all integrators I would hope are relatively similar to to the experience they have with everyone and take successes and failures to the next one the opportunities to learn so the more feedback you get the more you learn sure it becomes part of your experience and that’s really what we bring to the table more than anything else is is knowing what works what doesn’t and in what situation certain things kind of survive and %HESITATION thanks for mentioning that podcast I was on there was a lot of fun talking to Steve Greenblatt about you know my my journey and I think what you mentioned there are a great example of that is different types of people need a different kind of interface and we’ve always had a touch panel but over the last few years we’ve seen a lot of our products that have seen detection and they don’t even need control anymore because automation is kind of built into the products of the sink acutely and you do the same thing with a motion detector I think the best example of this is his voice control so if you put voice control more in a residential setting perhaps but it may move into commercial settings remains to be seen but if you put a touch panel ends voice control in a home I bet the different people that live in that home will gravitate more towards one or the other and you’ll see different usage and the outcome will be the same right the light will go on or off the music will come on or off but the interface is different and the way it’s controlled from that user is different and I expect to see more interfaces or more different kinds of interfaces in AV moving on yeah I think in many ways it’s important to kind of take into consideration just the different tasks that are relevant states you know an area like a home there are hundreds of different things you can do whereas yeah and you know what smaller commercial space you know medium meeting around you might only have six or seven different things you can do and so ultimately it comes back to focus on that user experience and the complexity as engineers as programmers we’re really good at making complexity even though our whole job is to eliminate that led the constant no internal battle %HESITATION but when we look at things like you know you mentioned pairing two different systems I think that that is very relevant and becomes more relevant as we go forward because something like turn the volume up back to me you know might be easier the button push but something like connect to mine conference with Beijing that might be a voice command you know it’s all about providing multiple access roads and letting people find their path least resistance bands now obviously that can be hard to do with scale but I think that you know you touch on a really good point about just taking that user into account and having people that work in different ways be able to work in different ways and that’s the trend in the commercial and business world today but it hasn’t trickled down to the baby systems as much right because it when you’re in residential you have a home you know exactly who the users are but in an organization you may get an idea for the culture of generally who is working there but it’s still almost like a public space and that’s one of the reasons why half of me believes that voice does have a future in commercial because you have these different types of people and once they get voice control I think they’ll be a segment of people who will never want to give it up and the other reason is it it’ll be easier to implement because like you said there’s just less functions I did a residential job with almost all voice control and we have to print out lists of all the functions that he has so that he could remember what to say and you know he has fifty lighting circuits but in a conference room you’re just gonna have start the meeting stop the meeting ends up maybe a handful of other commands that you use everyday so I even think implementation will will be easier there but that all remains to be seen how that’s going to play out I think it also you know there is saying that when you get systems like voice recognition that rely heavily upon machine learning or you know they’re all medical a I that a lot of the things that comes in a commercial that maybe doesn’t as much in residential is just intellectual property you know business to business do we want a shared pool somewhere in the cloud that has a record of what our people are saying you know that security again comes up and is very very relevant you know more so with voice and more so in the commercial space as we start to see you know I think it was an example I heard on the show not stooping robbing you but you know when somebody says start my meeting and the things I was back all you mean you’re firing everybody meeting that information is extremely sensitive so when you end up even the other way when you say you know John and development says Hey you start my meeting about our new twelve inch I found back it is something that you can’t have scraped out of the internet at any point so how you manage all that data where does things like that become extremely key so having companies that are rare incentives that where you know all our major control systems now do you support those kind of voice functions on the panel but where the data goes after that and as an interface is more more with cloud based machine learning systems how are you managing making sure that you know does same cloud that gives you your TV turning on easily doesn’t also compromise you know your security is in a variety of different ways definitely this kind of comes back to that experience home thing that we’re talking about because as more things get integrated were integrating the calendar well then it’s our job to make people aware you know everything you write in that calendar maybe read back over a speaker and those are just some some of the things that you know that that we as consultants when you’re consulting with somebody that needs to be pointed out and some users will be more comfortable with it than others do you like the garbage routes of the balding workplace exactly and there’s always pros and cons that need to be looked at so you mentioned the UAV can you tell me a little bit more about that because not all systems have the highest quality so what what’s the mission there what’s the mission there and %HESITATION what do you think really is the motivation for anybody in navy to deliver high quality so he is a great organization the big focus is on you know standards based on you know I SO nine thousand style conformance to performance metrics and how we do the process of a you know one example of that is that he is looking for gave prefabrication staging check last not everybody today even does that part of the process you know like I come across a ton of people that steal build everything and I can talk down blue in the face about you know one of the shop through the field all the other things that we say sure yeah let people know that that is probably not the most efficient way to do things but until you have to change not a lot of people are going to so that is a big part of that AKB process is saying this is what you’re looking for and your coming in to say we are in compliance we are doing the best we can to give you the best possible system that I’m adding something like that your process is key it also done follows through with just kind of basic performance metrics and testing you know directives all of that is yeah integrator influencers some cases customer controlled driven by you know establishing early on what you want a system to do so that you can know at the end that you did that you know there is an old box an old kind of AB guide guy that goes around in this truck delivering random sound systems that you turn it on you turn it up you say yeah that’s probably what I wanted to do that that’s good also but you know there’s a big difference between mac and the ability to enter a space but you properly surveyed that you’ve planned accordingly and then at the end of that measuring and saying yes when I put in here is not only exactly what you needed because I’ve been an engineering effort correctly on the front end but it’s what you wanted because I did the discovery after court so that got is that the media does make you if he is ultimately just trying to really kind of track and provide more linear process flow to what people are doing to get quality results and I think that the answer your other question you know where where quality is really important quality assurance I think that’s still something that is really missing in the industry as a whole there a lot of people that do a sand castle and I you know encounter incredible people that probably would do a better job than I do when I’m on the board so but you know when you see the widespread writing a lot of people are still doing the bare minimum they’re doing what they can get away well and so a big guy the rest of really all standards reclamation work inside of this industry has ended up at the consultant store set up and that the users doorstep you know the people that have to ask for it specifically but it has been nice in the last you know year or maybe even more than we really started to see an uptick in the number of integrators that are recognized and saying you know I’m gonna get out of this I’m going to be awhile before I have to be and I’m going to really take the time to understand how that improves my business that is what do you reason for the up tickets I think ultimately it’s more exposure and I think that it’s it’s been difficult to really get in front of the integrator specifically in a way that really helps them understand the value and a lot of that is because they’re working yeah when you all the writers that I know are only fourteen hour days pretty regularly so getting any kind of you know proactive education in front of them is very difficult sure you know even the great and we get it great integrators that are doing you know everything they can for their customer may not also be aware that there are these kind of standards that they can we on as well so education about and really a part of that building awareness coming on here talking year stuff like that so I think that that started to change very positive way trend continues call so let’s play a little game you are will imagine that you are I don’t know some kind of freelance consultant engineer integrate or whatever and I’m one of those integrators that doesn’t do a great job I’m working fourteen hours a day I have my excuses there’s not enough time there’s not enough margin there’s not enough this or that what do you say to me how do you try to help me do the writer one of the easiest ways to get through to somebody is generally talking about dead display because that is a great example that everybody has experienced you don’t do shot build you take it out in the field in the box you put it out you stand you know all day in this room getting out a nine inch display were some massive Europe two hundred fifty pound talking about what about plugin is a lot we you just get a big green like a cult and that moments the benefits of taking it out of the box plugging it in ending the power button in your shop where you could put it back on the truck and it took five minutes to test you’re gonna spend the next two hours taking my display backed down and re boxing thinking about five minutes so Baptist on our list usually the place that I start because nobody has gone their whole career without getting a massively destructive way out of the box and that really helps people identify usually it’s something I try to preach all the time but the conversation is often difficult because you need to buy the equipment earlier that’s that’s the first one that I always get employed why can’t we just drop ship everything to the job site the answer is well then you you become Amazon right I’m as I’m kind of it’s hard you know happening the space to point you know you’re asking nine years for a project thing like that you know there are definitely costs associated with getting back ability to execute on the ground and but you know I worked for three different companies now that has implemented you know like you to be specifically and seen dramatic savings on the back and you know that’s where you end up you have you know the medical zero points last project stuff like that can actually occur when you really you you’re gonna work yeah and you end up ahead actually yeah definitely the the zero punch list the projects I’ve experienced it as well once or twice and it’s always because things were defined extremely two eighty one hundred percent up fronts and checklists were made and everything can just kind of fall into place and if you’re used to having a hard time closing projects getting having all sign off taking a long time because things just are just there’s open items all over the place I think that some that’s really one of the main factors for just doing the work up front so are you a V. dot org to get more information about how to do a better job so tell me about TV cici I am glad you asked David cheat sheet is pretty new projects for me I know that there are some fantastic AB podcasts out there in the world but you know I thought you could use one more we drive a lot so there’s always more time and really the point of baby cheat sheet is truly accessible simple information I know when I started when I talk to people that have recently started in the industry there are a lot of really big concepts out there you know how do you do your pad and how do you do acoustics in a conference room you know what I don’t understand what these channels are doing and why they’re here things like that that seem really daunting and then you get five years in your career when you look back in your life that that was really easy wanted somebody’s explain it to me and that is but the real point of AB cheat sheet is just kind of being your your industry friends that he’s going to give you the low down so you can walk in feeling prepared when you have to talk about different subjects do you project yourself in one episode up as of now decided to act take a big bite start house are kind of women in the industry but our our next episode here a little %HESITATION easier to consume definitely talking about basic top concern acoustics and how to navigate acoustics needs inside of a project because that is definitely something I think a lot of people in the black either just trying to keep the budget down or because they don’t know enough about it so I’m trying to get a second group of people and just make sure that nobody is giving out because they don’t have the education excellent so comes back to education again and that’s something I always really believe in and I wish you all the best with that we’ve covered a bunch of topics today from from using alternative control and automation processes commodity hardware such as the raspberry pi we talked about improving quality and and using processes to do that and you talked a bit about you know some some some basic AV knowledge like %HESITATION acoustics and things like that what would you say to somebody where or where do you think somebody should get started if they’re looking to yet just expand their horizons a little bit where do you think you would get the most bang for your Buck great and complicated question well I think that it really depends what you’re trying to do yes what you want is a really kind of generalized overview of what the technology are available then you know something like the extra maybe associate program I know it’s very helpful for me when I started but if you want you know more specifically to look at you know save programming and I know that after you got a ton of great classes related set out on your website as well there are not a ton of AB directed podcasts otherwise that I’m wearing your baby directed learning websites for programming but obviously every manufacturer has programs available for you to learn whatever their color as and just kind of looking for community ultimately because there are a lot of things even you know Facebook groups and stuff like that that are really surprisingly corners of new people starting out that have questions and just kind of want to get a few things so I think that between some of those three different directions everybody should be able to find a foothold to get started excellent I appreciate that Anna if anybody would like to get in touch with you how they go about doing that leave them is probably the best way I try to stay is on top of that it’s possible you can read your mind awareness work extremely well and other than that at AB cheat sheet maybe Gigi email if they were going to pop out so we’re always looking for feedback stuff like that so and that you know don’t forget sell everything and we have you on excellent thank you very much shame and a pleasure you for anyone on your staff ever considered themselves just in eighty programmer join the club that’s how I used to feel I was just an AMX programmer or just Crestron program or whatever language of your choice is whatever it may be there’s generally this feeling in AV that we’re not capable of using modern programming languages and it simply isn’t true sure there’s a learning curve but once you get through it all other languages become easier to learn and it just expands the amount of options you have when designing a system it’s not an either or decision you don’t say I won’t be using these manufacture tools anymore it’s just you have a broader palate to choose from ends here’s what market day founder of idea box had to say about his experience with the online courses at learn eighty programming dot com you know Patrick it’s funny how the smallest things can sometimes be the start of a really big ideas %HESITATION before I took the learn ATV programming dot com courses I was in that Terry I’m only a control system programmer kind of mindset rate %HESITATION when he came to new technologies or current technologies like Java script error or things like that for some reason I thought that was different from what I’m doing and what taking your courses flipped for me was not so much what I learned technically taking the courses it was the mindset of well wait a second I’m already doing ninety nine percent of what some of these most of modern programmers are dealing I just have to learn %HESITATION you know the other one percent and that’s really what I did so it’s really been kind of a big change after taking the course %HESITATION and I would really recommend this course to any integrator not only will obviously help their skill set but more importantly it might change their whole mindset %HESITATION which is more important and and and really show them new opportunities open the door so they kind of see problems through a different lens %HESITATION I gotta tell you one of the biggest changes for me was as soon as I become myself HTML CSS javascript and solve the you eyes that I can make with those technologies I just couldn’t sell a %HESITATION Crestron touch him again mark is a great example of somebody who takes new information and really applies it I know that mark still sells a lot of Crestron equipment but for him for his company for his customers for his business he needed a better you why he needed another option for user interface and modern programming allowed him to do that so the question is how can you use modern programming to improve your business please go to learn AV programming dot com and wherever you see a sign up button go ahead and sign up and you’ll get some free information to get a feel of my learning style and what kind of information is available and of course it would be an honor to have you in role in one of our courses and help you upgrade your skills and take this industry to the next level thanks for listening software defined survival I hope you found it useful and maybe it inspires you to try out something new this week if you have any questions does software defined survival dot com click the appropriate I’d love to answer questions on the air and if you’d like to help spread the word please subscribe comment and share thanks